The Secrets to Sales Success
“I believe we’re all selling, all the time; we’re selling ourselves, we’re selling our personality.” Oisin Browne, Author, Binman’s Guide to Selling.
If you recognise this statement as true, that each day presents us with the need and opportunity to sell, persuade or negotiate then you’ll definitely understand how important it is to hone your sales skills.
Whether it’s learning to approach people in a room, relaxing into the ‘ask’ or understanding that ‘no’ isn’t the worse answer you can get – everyone can brush up their sales skills a little.
Working in events, you’ll probably need the secrets to sales success more than your average person. You’ll probably need to attract and sign sponsors, attendees, marketing partners, press, speakers, artists, donors…depending on the event the list could get very large!
That’s why we sat down for a chat with Oisin Browne, the author of internationally acclaimed book ‘The Binman’s Guide to Selling‘ and upcoming book ‘The Binman’s Guide to Marketing‘.
In this 30 minute podcast, he offers some fantastic advice for anyone who wants to improve their powers of persuasion and get better at everyday sales; while digging into more advanced tips for those who do sales professionally.
This is a must listen/read for anyone interested in understanding the secrets to sales success.
What you’ll learn:
- The importance of selling every day
- Avoiding amateur sales mistakes
- How to relax when selling
- Why ‘LAB’ is a formula for sales success
- How to be a more effective networker
- The story of a marriage that illustrates the importance of asking
- Using social media to help you sell
- Successful approaches to sponsorship and attendee sales
- Getting sales and marketing to work together
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Here’s the full transcript:
INTRO
MARK: [0:00] Hi. I’m Mark Walker from Eventbrite. Welcome to our latest expert interviews podcast on essential business skills.
For those of you unfamiliar with Eventbrite, we are a self-service ticketing platform and live experiences marketplace.
It’s my pleasure to be joined today by the best-selling author, speaker and sales guru: Oisin Browne. Oisin, thank you for joining us.
OISIN: Good to be with you, Mark.
MARK: Thank you. So for anyone not familiar with your work I’ll just give a quick rundown: you are the author of internationally acclaimed book The Binman’s Guide to Selling, as well as being a regular business writer, speaker and consultant, and you’ve spent over 20 years selling everything from paintings, Spanish Christmas carols, to waste and recycling products; so quite a diverse sales experience there.
[1:39] So I’m going to dive straight in with the first question which is: why is it that sales still is so often seen in a negative light?
Does sales have a bad rep?
OISIN: I think sales is seen in a negative light really because everybody is saturated with what they believe to be sales motivated material. [2:00] When they open their email in the morning it’s full of spam and newsletters; when they go home and collect their mail at home they have more leaflets and pamphlets from different companies, often different products: they can’t get away from it.
Even when they go out to restaurants there are people in front of the restaurants saying ‘come in here, come in here,’ and yes this is all sales but it’s not really good sales and it’s giving sales a bad name. Sales – let’s face it, you’re not going to buy something unless you really, really want it but sales is clever, marketing is clever. There’s ways and there’s means and there’s proven techniques to persuade people and catch them off guard, and the next thing people are making purchases that possibly they may think they want because it’s been suggested to them. [3:00]
I think it’s an over-saturation of the market, really, that’s led to sales, if it has a bad name. But the other side of that coin is I don’t believe it does have a bad name.
MARK: Okay well that’s good, let’s pick up on that then: [3:19] so potentially it could be seen in a negative light because there’s so much bombardment and people have their guards up; however, you don’t agree that it does necessarily have a bad name.
So tell me about the positives of sales – how can sales make a positive difference in the world, into people’s lives, and maybe just touch on what is the difference between good sales and maybe that negative sales?
Good sales = matching value
OISIN: To start off with I think a good sales person will accept a no as quick as they will accept a yes, [4:00] because they know if you don’t want something or if the buyer doesn’t want it, that’s okay. You know it’s a choice, they don’t force the product on them, they don’t try walk through the prospects of the potential buyer to get the yes, they know a no is a no, move on. It’s probably the maybes that kill the salesmen, more so than the noes and the yeses.
But to get back to the point, we’re all selling. I believe we’re all selling, all the time; we’re selling ourselves, we’re selling our personality. Let’s go back to when we’re kids, when we’re kids and we’re with our parents and we’re going into the toy shop, we’re selling to our parents ‘I want this, I want this.’ Maybe mummy or daddy says ‘No,’ and you go to the other parent and say ‘Oh please, please, please,’ and even at this young age you’re honing your skills.
You might be out doing the shopping with your partner and you’re getting the groceries for dinner and one person says ‘I’d love a pizza,’ and the other person goes ‘No, but I want a salad.’ [5:00] So even in these interactions you’re selling; you’re selling the reasons why you want the pizza, why you want the salad; you go into a job interview and you have to sell yourself. All the time in life through interactions with different people you’re selling yourself.
So it’s just a word to describe an interaction. Selling can be also defined as persuasion, as suggestions. I would’ve studied hypnotherapy at one point and I would’ve seen the relationship as well with this – you’re selling and suggesting an idea.
MARK: [5:47] So just to try and paraphrase then, good sales isn’t necessarily about pushing no matter what the customer wants, right? [6:00] It’s about sometimes planting the idea there around what they do want, but ultimately it’s about providing them something that they want; a service or good that they’re interested in, and being able to take no for an answer if they don’t want it.
OISIN: Correct. I mean there has to be a value on your product. What happens with the salesman who can’t take no is he gets emotional about it, he might get upset, he might get angry, but really if he accepts that no he’ll go onto the next person and he will find a match for his product, that’s providing as an assumption that there’s value in the product, and that concurs to what you’re saying to me. There must be value for the buyer, otherwise why would they buy? There must be a need, it must fill a need.
Beginners’ sales mistakes
MARK: Exactly. [6:48] So you spoke there about maybe a less mature salesperson taking rejection in an emotional way or in a bad way. [7:00] Are there any other mistakes or flaws that you see new salespeople making that kind of repeat themselves time and again and that they eventually grow out of?
OISIN: Even I’m still making mistakes. Well I’ll tell you, the doorbell rang last week and I had a young person calling from a telephone company and the first thing she asked was how much am I paying for my bill. There was no introduction of names, there was no observation of the environment, that there was children around. There was no introduction of who and what and where and why she was there.
Now, because I’ve been on that side of the fence myself, I didn’t mind having the conversation with her and going through the process, but I know under certain circumstances the door would be closed. [8:00]
MARK: Yeah.
OISIN: You have to acknowledge your environment when you go into sales; you have to read the room.
MARK: Okay. So kind of understand who you’re selling to, and in what context.
OISIN: Right. And every door you knock, you know, it’s going to be different.
MARK: [8:12] So I guess flexibility is a key trait to good sales people?
OISIN: Flexibility, but people skills – I think it’s about being able to connect with the people, not just going straight for the kill. People need to be relaxed to make a sale – this is absolutely the most important thing, and I would say to people listening, if there’s one thing you learn, learn to be relaxed because when you’re relaxed your potential client is relaxed, and you don’t get a potential client relaxed by talking about your product.
MARK: [8:48] So have you got any tips on how maybe a novice sales person or anyone for that matter can get someone to relax – are there any tips there?
How to relax when selling
OISIN: [9:00] What I would say is the first tip is relax yourself. When you’re relaxed people around you are relaxed.
The second thing I would say is to be relaxed, be okay with all outcomes, because if you’re looking for a certain outcome and you don’t get it you’re not going to be relaxed you’re going to be nervous, you’re going to be anxious.
The third thing I would say is listen. Let the potential client talk, let them tell you what their needs are. A lot of sales guys do a lot of talking and sometimes they don’t really listen.
So there’s an acronym that I use which is LAB: when you go into a sale or a meeting and you want to sell something, think LAB: L is for ‘Listen,’ A is for ‘Ask for the business,’ and B is for ‘Bite your lip.’ The B is the most important.
MARK: That’s good. I like that, LAB. Okay. [10:00] So we spoke briefly about everyone being a sales person, and I absolutely think that’s true, every single day you’re negotiating, you’re persuading, there’s always an outcome that you’d prefer or that you’d like to see. Is it a skill that maybe should be taught explicitly in schools? Do we have enough sales skills in general?
Should sales be taught?
OISIN: Well I think sales skills starts with communication, starts in many ways by default. We have these skills, as I said, we’re selling – even at school you’re selling to the teacher whether you have or haven’t done the homework. It’s just a matter of how you communicate that and how well you communicate.
The answer to your question is yes, it should be taught, because we’re in a society that’s very commercially driven, and it’s not to teach it so everybody can go into this, but it’s to teach it so people can understand it.
MARK: [11:00] Okay. So in terms of what might be taught there versus what we just learned and inherently pick up day-to-day, I guess it would really be around the intention of our communication, is that right? So that we may persuade and we may communicate on a day-to-day basis but actually to be a sales person, to be selling, you have to have a certain intention behind that communication.
OISIN: Well you’re selling something so your end goal is to have a transaction. But in order to find the right client you have to understand that you may need to knock on 10 doors to get one, you may need to understand that that client may not have the need at the moment so now may not be the time. It’s not to close that door but leave it open, and a lot of this is done through building relationships and not just going next, next, next, next… [12:00] You might lose a sale today but if you keep that relationship that person might come back to you, or recommend you at a further date.
MARK: Yeah. So that goes back to taking the time to listen and learn and understand someone and kind of build that friendship, that relationship.
Networking and sales
OISIN: Yeah, it’s all about connecting with people and I believe if you want to be good at sales be good at networking also.
MARK: Right. [12:35] And people can be very awkward networking can’t they? It’s an intimidating idea going into that room and not knowing anyone and trying to then network. Have you got any tips for that?
OISIN: Yes I do, and my favourite place to be is in a room full of people who don’t know each other. The first thing I would say to you is approach people who are on their own because you know what, they’re in the same boat as you. They’re in that room on their own as well. Introduce yourself, put out your handshake, shake their hand and introduce yourself, and that starts the conversation. [13:00]
The other thing that I would say is if you’re confident maybe you can harness that room environment to actually talk to the people in the room collectively. So maybe public speaking is a way to introduce your product to a room full of people. If you’re very shy just take it one step at a time; make your intention before you go into that room, I want to give my business card, or I want to collect x amount of business cards in this meeting. So always go into a room with an intention: I want to talk to two people; I want to collect three business cards; I want to tell ten people about my product – that’s my intention.
MARK: Yeah. [13:54] So set some goals, have that intention and then just try and stick to it?
OISIN: Correct.
MARK: Excellent. [14:00] I think the fact of the matter is – because I’ve done this, I’ve been to many networking events where I don’t know anyone and it’s intimidating but I think once you’ve broken the ice like you said, that first time, you realise that actually everyone’s in the same boat as you, pretty much every single person’s friendly, you may have the odd exception but it’s really very rare and I think once people realise that they probably get a taste for networking actually.
OISIN: And the thing about networking is don’t just go for the half an hour and collect the card and leave: you need to follow up. So if you do talk to someone, reach out and say look. Drop them an email, connect with them online and you know, maybe have an agreed next action, where you say ‘look I’d love to meet you for a coffee for half an hour during the week, let me know when you’re free.’ And this is how relationships are built. You know, if you’re going with the heavy hitting sales pitch people will be turned off. Let them in to you, let them know a bit about you; who you are, maybe you have a family, you have kids, you’re interested in sport, and that’s where you connect with people. [15:00]
MARK: Right, absolutely. Beyond just the product or the service that you’re offering; talk about yourself a little, and obviously ask them about themselves?
OISIN: And one thing I would say you know, look for business networking groups in your area, and if you can’t find a business network group, start one. Because that just means there’s an opening to start one.
MARK: It’s a great tip. [15:30] So one of the other things that people can be intimidated by or they can be a little bit scared of – particularly in face-to-face networking situations or other sales situations – is actually asking for the business, and you mention that’s the A in your LAB acronym. Have you got any advice on how people can get over that and ask for the business?
OISIN: Always I say when you’re doing sales have a clear script written out, and a script isn’t something that you learn off by heart and write off, a script you might learn it off by heart and you throw it away, [16:00] but what it is it’s just key points that will amp you back into your pitch, or into the moment, you know why you’re there. Sometimes it’s best to ask for the business at the start.
A sales proposal
I’ll tell you a story, Mark, and I want to tell you the story of how I met my wife. I met my wife back in 2007 and I was going to a sales meeting at the time. I was driving up the road and my mother rang. I never answer the phone in the car but I make exceptions for my mother, and she was looking for something sweet in the bakery, and sure enough, close by was a bakery. I went into the bakery, I put my order in to one of the girls and I looked into the back of the bakery and there was this girl and I just kissed her with my eyes – I don’t know if you’ve ever kissed anyone with your eyes, it was just a great experience.
I called her over and I asked for a pen and a piece of paper. [17:00] So she proceeded to take the paper out of the till and gave me a pen. I wrote down my phone number and I handed it to her, and I said ‘I’d love to meet you for a coffee this week.’ And I walked out the door.
Now, that’s a story I tell because there’s a very important sales tip in this. The most important thing is if you don’t ask, you don’t get.
MARK: It’s a great tip.
OISIN: That’s number one, but the second important thing I did is I walked out the door.
MARK: Right, and what’s the significance of that?
OISIN: Because you know, if you’re standing around waiting for an answer you’re not going to give the person time to think, they need time to make a decision themselves. You have to empower them, which is what I did when I put the number in her… I didn’t ask her for her number, I gave her my number; I empowered her. It’s the same when walking out the door, you have to empower and trust people to make decisions. You know, you’ve done all your suggestions, you’ve laid it out clear on the table, you’ve asked for the business, like I asked for the number. [18:00] And I said why, you know I didn’t just ask for her number, I said I’d love to get your number and I’d love to meet you for a coffee this week. And that’s another important point about that story is I asked for a next agreed action, I said this week.
So there are a lot of good tips in that story. And here’s the last thing that I found out later: is your environment and how much that plays on the sale. So there was six customers in the shop that day and I found out about a month later, one of the reasons that she texted me was that all the customers that were there when I left ‘ah go on, he’s a lovely guy.’ They’re all rooting for me. But you know what, you don’t know who’s rooting for you, you don’t know what connections they have, and connections are very important to build in order to really cement what’s going to happen in your environment. [19:00]
So really I mean the key point here is if you don’t ask, you don’t get, and I live my life like that. From asking the girl out and that girl is now my wife and two houses, two children, two cars later we’re happy and married. But if you don’t ask you don’t get: I apply that to everything I do.
MARK: That’s a fantastic anecdote. I really like, and it just encapsulates all of the key tips we’ve spoken about so far so thanks for sharing that. [19:37] So the other thing, because we were talking about networking in a room as well and in-person and you mentioned that it’s so important that people who’ve collected cards and met those people that they actually follow up with them and connect online and that got me thinking how important has social media become in sales? You know to me LinkedIn seems like an obvious social network but you may have thoughts on others as well? [20:00]
Social media and sales
OISIN: It’s very important because what’s happening now is you know what when you go in to give a presentation or meet a potential client, when you leave that room nine times out of 10 what they’re going to do is they’re going to Google you, they’re going to check out not what your product is but they’re going to check out who is Mark Walker, who does he work for, what is he about. So if they go into your profile and you have a bad photo or your profile looks like a CV, there’s no information, there’s no picture – these are things that can let the sale down. But the other side of that is you can flip that on its head and they can go into your profile, you have a great photo, you have more information on your product and on yourself, and when they go in there they might say ‘oh but Mark knows two or three of my contacts that I know really well, that’s great,’ you know? [21:00]
So it’s an opportunity to up your game, it’s an opportunity to really ground and put the foundation down in the sale because it’s not over when you walk out the door, no more than the story I told about meeting my wife then other customers in the room. Well you know your connections and your profile online can be your influence in your environment. So I would ask you as a sales person not to think about the company you work for but do you own your own domain; what’s on that domain? Does it say hey, my name’s Mark Walker and I work for Eventbrite, check me out here: it could be just a one pager, and I’m also interested in this that and the other.
I would also say to you if you’re in sales get the premium package so you can connect with more people and you can put out wider searches but also pimp out your profile; put videos there and put pdfs there, put links to pages. [22:00] There’s two kinds of profiles out there, there’s the ones that look like CVs, there’s the ones that aren’t filled and then there’s the ones that really nail it and they’re the ones that when you go into them you want to do business with them because they tell you a little more, they give you a little bit more information, whether it’s through video, media – they have that likeability about them.
It’s a powerful platform and it enables you to communicate and catch the attention. Really I would say if you use it right as well, a lot of people can use LinkedIn for lead generation, which it is a good starting point. So a lot of people use it to do background checks I think, and research.
MARK: Yeah. No absolutely, I mean it’s an incredibly powerful platform. I think they’ve got well over 300 million people connected on LinkedIn now, so it’s very, very likely you’ll find your prospects on there and they in turn will find you. [23:00]
OISIN: And the other thing Mark is if someone does a Google search on you the first thing that’s going to come up in the Google rankings is your LinkedIn.
MARK: Yeah, yeah.
OISIN: So you know, if that’s the first thing a potential client’s going to look at get it perfect. You know it’s worth a couple of pounds to go out there and get a professional for example to take a headshot, and if you don’t know where to start and how to fill this in look for somebody with a profile that blows you away, and say you know what I’m just going to use that as my template.
MARK: Right. I think that’s a great tip and I’m also going to give a little plug for our blog here, because we recently published just last week a guy called Mr. LinkedIn himself, five tips to enhance your profile, or five mistakes that beginners make actually, and then how to resolve them. So if anyone’s listening they’ll be able to find that on the blog as well. [24:00]
Okay, so I just wanted to touch on a couple of very specific sales topics if that’s okay.
OISIN: Yeah, yeah.
Event Sponsorship Sales
MARK: So what it is, is around event sponsorship. So sponsorship sales for events is a very specific skillset, it often has long lead times and quite big contract values. What would your advice be to event organisers looking to land their first big sponsor?
OISIN: My advice would be look at it as a partnership, not as a sale, because otherwise it can see like you’re coming from the angle of kneeling with your hand out. So first thing is if you’re looking for event sponsors there has to be a fit, it has to be meaningful to the target audience that’s going to be at that event, and really have a clear link there. [25:00] So invite them as a partner, as opposed to a sponsor. That’s the first thing I would say; there’s a lot of ways to approach it, you know? And have it very clear what they will get out of it: you know a lot of event organisers fall short and say ‘oh you know we’re going to put your logo everywhere.’ Well that’s not necessarily what sponsors want. They want to be part of it but they want a return, so you know what I would be saying is maybe ask them for some kind of discount package of their product which they can offer only to people at your event. Give them time on the stage as well as their logo everywhere. [26:00]
But you know as well, you know we’re talking about social media, open that up to them; open your social media channels up to them; make videos of the sponsors and you know, you’re looking for a sponsor as well that can add terms of value in information expertise, so they can really maximize the audience. So that’s why I think partnership is always the better word, although there is an exchange and there is a say look at it from the angle of a partnership, and I would also say to events, you know, a lot of events only look for one-off sponsorship: no, I would build on that and say look, if it’s a success for you in year one, we’ll give you first refusal in year two and year three. So it’s nearly like a three year contract otherwise you know what, you’re back at square one the following year. So it has to be long term to build a relationship.
MARK: That’s some top advice. [27:00] So just to quickly summarise that you would say approach it as a partnership, not as a sale; make sure you understand what value they’re looking for, what unique value you can offer them; and also, try and approach it in that partnership over the long term, so that it’s not just a one-shop thing, otherwise you’re going to have to do it all over again.
OISIN: Correct.
Attendee Sales
MARK: Okay, great. [27:23] So that’s some good advice there on the sponsorship sales side of things, now the other major type of sale that event organisers will have to deal with is delegate sales or attendee sales, and that’s often kind of a churn and burn approach – quite high turn-around, and the major KPR is the volume of cold calls made every day. Do you still think there’s a place for that slightly more old-school approach to sales, or how could that be evolved and is the number of cold calls made a day the right kind of KPR for people to be measuring?
OISIN: [28:00] Well if you’re going to do cold calling you have to measure it. The way for it to evolve is just don’t do cold calls and bring it digitally online. But it depends on the relationship with the audience and how well known the event organiser is, or the brand of the speakers a lot of people use to put in an audience to the event and you know, what’s becoming more popular now is the early bird, using the early bird sales method where the tickets are a little cheaper for the first onboard and that can boost the numbers, and that’s where you should boost the numbers.
I think a lot of times people leave the cold calling too late. If you want to call start it when you start the early bird.
MARK: Right, right, when you’ve got something of value to offer in exchange?
OISIN: Yes. Because otherwise if you’re cold calling a week before the event or days before the event, it looks desperate. And it probably is.
Sales and Marketing
MARK: [29:00] Yeah, yeah. Very true. You mentioned the answer to not cold calling is to try and move things online a little bit and maybe warm those leads up. You know, there’s this term now – inbound marketing – which I’m a big fan of and you know, your next book that’s coming out is The Binman’s Guide to Marketing, which I believe is due out towards the end of May, around May the 28th, is that right?
OISIN: That’s right, yeah. And again, The Binman’s Guide to Marketing is an overview of marketing, and again when you’re writing a book on marketing you have to be in many minds careful because you can go very deep on one subject and that is out of date in the marketing world very quickly. So I mean it’s 100 marketing inspirations and ideas from branding, PR, digital marketing, traditional media as well, to help or inspire to increase sales. [30:00]
So I talk about the preparation and planning and performing before you go out and market it. We talk about digital marketing – everything from your Webinars to your videos. Building the brand, which is a huge thing, is to have consistency in your brand and putting the brand in their hands. In the book we dive into the PR engine and becoming a bit more media savvy. As well as that we have a chapter which is just about your own marketing skills and what we already talked about, working and building relationships.
At the end of the book we have interviews with marketing leaders from Ryanair, Microsoft, OnePageCRM, Coder Dojo…a lot of companies that what I believe give great marketing advice.
MARK: Fantastic, and I think the reason we got onto marketing is just because marketing sales, they clearly go hand in hand, so I think it’s just the right compliment to go with there, with your copy of The Binman’s Guide to Sales, I think.
OISIN: Well look, I started in sales before I went on to marketing and the first time a marketing book actually sells, if you want to be world class at marketing, be a sales person first. And it’s not to put one before the other but you know, when you’re doing the sales everything’s about measuring, it’s about performance, and it’s good to bring that into your marketing because what’s happened really in marketing in some incidences is people have got caught up in the copy and does it look nice, [32:00] and they’re not measuring, they don’t have strong KPIs to go along with the marketing.
I think in a lot of ways if you’re marketing efforts are focused on increasing sales you will hit the right market and it’s kind of like – the best way I can describe it, as a marketer, you look for the right pond to fish in, and you have the sales person understand where that pond is, you let the marketing place draw the right bait and the right fish, and as a sales person they will go out and just catch it. Now, that’s providing you have sales teams and marketing teams, but you know it doesn’t always have to be that way: a lot of businesses out there – a lot of people that use Eventbrite – they wear both the marketing and the sales hat. [33:00] And if you do marketing think of it like this: think of marketing with this trigger question: whatever you do in marketing ask will this increase my sales.
MARK: Absolutely, and if not, why are you doing it?
OISIN: Yeah, and there can be good reasons to do it in terms of increasing brand awareness and testing the market for research, there can be a lot of different reasons to do it, just make sure that they’re the right reasons.
MARK: Yeah. Make sure everything you do has a purpose.
OISIN: Correct.
Summary
MARK: Okay, so I think we can start to wrap up here. [33:50] So for listeners who would like to learn more about improving their sales performance, you write regularly on these topics. Where can they go to find more information?
OISIN: [34:00] Okay, so www.binmansguide.com. B I N M A N S G U I D E .com.
MARK: Fantastic. Binmansguide.com.
OISIN: OisinBrowne.com. O I S I N B R O W N E .com.
MARK: Okay there we go, so there’s two main places to go and The Binman’s Guide to Selling is still of course sold through Amazon, and you should definitely put a date in your diary to look at purchasing your copy of The Binman’s Guide to Marketing when it comes out towards the end of May.
OISIN: Can I say one thing Mark, because I just wouldn’t be me without asking: so if you haven’t read The Binman’s Guide to Sales get a copy on Amazon, it will change your life. And don’t forget, if you don’t ask you don’t get, so I’m asking.
MARK: That’s fantastic. See – advice that’s to be lived by, which I think is really important. [35:00] And so for anyone interested in learning more about events, events planning, ticketing and registration or Eventbrite in general you can also check out our blog, blog.eventbrite.co.uk, or go to our main site Eventbrite.co.uk.
So with that I’d like to thank you again for joining us, Oisin.
OISIN: Thank you Mark, it was a pleasure, I enjoyed it.
MARK: I’ve learnt a lot today so thank you very much. And thank you all for listening to our latest expert interviews podcast on essential business skills, and until next month, goodbye.